Most leaders can point to the one team that is not hitting its goals. The numbers are down, turnover is up, a client or two has walked, and the manager over that team is a good one. So the default move kicks in: a serious conversation, a set of metrics, and a performance improvement plan with a date on the calendar. Then the person gets worse instead of better, and nobody can explain it.

Janet Bernstein can. She is a keynote speaker, human behavior expert, and ten-time author who spent more than twenty years in corporate leadership, learning and development, and professional training before stepping out to help organizations build trust and create cultures people do not want to leave. On this episode of The Amanda Kaufman Show, she explains what burnout actually is, how to recognize it before performance drops, the reason a PIP pushes a burned-out employee further over the edge, and the very different conversation that brings people back.

Burnout Means the Fire Has Fizzled, and a Fizzled Fire Can Be Relit

Burnout is a fancy way of saying the fire has fizzled out. That is Janet's plain definition, and it comes with a hopeful second half: a fizzled fire is not a dead one.

How It Matters: Janet wrote a book with burnout in the title, and she still sees the eye rolls and the deep sighs when the word comes up. Nobody wants to talk about it and nobody wants to admit it. Yet every conversation she has with a leader about a struggling team eventually lands in the same place: they do not feel the fire anymore. Naming it accurately is the first step to doing something about it.

How to Do It: Think of a candle. When it goes out, you relight it. Burnout works the same way, with one addition Janet is careful to make. The environment around the candle has to cooperate for it to stay lit. If the storms are crashing down around you, the strongest flame will struggle, and the answer might be removing yourself from the storm or waiting for it to pass, not blaming the flame.

Common Mistake: Treating burnout as a personal failing. Many people assume their fire went out because something is wrong with them, when it may not be something of their own doing at all. The elements around them are doing so much that no amount of grit was going to keep the light burning brightly.

The Early Signs of Burnout Show Up Long Before the Numbers Do

Burnout announces itself in small, ordinary moments, and Janet's own test is what she feels when she looks at her day each morning.

How It Matters: When Janet wakes up and can look at her day with some excitement, she knows she is good. When she wakes up with a feeling of dread, which she had a lot in corporate America, she knows burnout is creeping in. Leaders who wait for the metrics to slide are catching the problem months after it started.

How to Do It: Watch for the small tells. Someone asks how to do something that is normally easy for you, and instead of lighting up and telling them all the things, you sigh. You lose patience with a question from a child or a grandchild that would usually get a deep breath and a kind answer. The excitement drains out of things that used to be effortless. Those are the signals, in yourself and in your people.

Common Mistake: Calling it stress. A lot of people go to considerable lengths to disguise burnout, and the most common disguise is "I'm not burned out, I'm just stressed." As Janet puts it, it is burnout in some way or another, and the sparkle being gone is obvious to everyone else even when the person insists otherwise.

Most People Stay in What Drains Them Because the Alternative Feels Bigger

Amanda asked the obvious question: if nearly everyone is burned out, what keeps people from fixing it? Janet's answer is that the other side usually looks like a bigger leap.

How It Matters: Picture the person in a corporate role they took for the stability, the paycheck, and the 401(k). They drive in every day, sit in the cubicle, and know they do not feel completely alive there. Launching a business or starting a job hunt feels so big that it is easier to stay put. Society reinforces it too: you are supposed to have a job you do not like, money does not grow on trees, be thankful you have work at all. So people settle, and they tell themselves they should be happier.

How to Do It: Separate gratitude from obligation. Janet describes landing a corporate training job after COVID canceled every one of her live events. They handed her a Yeti cup with her name engraved on it, and she posted it on social media feeling like she had won the lottery. Three years later, the day she left, she could not look at that cup the same way. Both feelings were legitimate. It is okay to be thankful for what a job gave you at the time and equally thankful that you exited when you needed to.

Common Mistake: Obligated gratitude. Many people compare their current role to an earlier season with fewer options, or to a friend who has been out of work for six months, and decide that wanting more is ungrateful. Amanda called this out directly: gratitude a thousand percent, and it does not diminish your ambition or your desire for something more aligned. You can be thankful for what you have and still want more.

On a Team of Ten, About a Third Are Running in Survival Mode

When a leader calls Janet, the story is almost always the same: one team, led by an incredible leader, that is not hitting goals. Her read on what is really going on reframes the whole situation.

How It Matters: On a team of ten, Janet says it is pretty safe to assume a third of them are completely burned out and operating from a place of survival and the bare minimum. They have lost the spark, and they are too afraid to walk away, or they physically, mentally, or financially cannot. So they disengage just enough to protect themselves. What the leader sees is poor performance. What is actually happening is self-protection.

How to Do It: Look at the whole team, not just the bottom. Janet usually finds one or two high achievers who are beating every quota, and one of them is going rogue: breaking rules, steamrolling everyone, impossible to manage, and everybody knows it. The leader is so consumed by the poor performers that the person at the top never gets disciplined, and the rest of the team watches that happen.

Common Mistake: Promoting people without preparing them. The top performers are the ones who get moved into leadership, and they have never experienced the struggles of the people at the bottom. Then organizations skip the training on emotional intelligence and psychological safety, often because the people in charge do not know those tools exist. By the time Janet is called in, people are already on improvement plans and someone is already out the door.

A Performance Improvement Plan Pushes a Burned-Out Person Further Over the Edge

The PIP is designed to address performance, and performance is a tiny piece of what is actually going on. That is the reason it so often produces the opposite of what the leader intended.

How It Matters: Remember the candle in the storm. Everything else in that person's world is crumbling, and the job was the last little thing they were holding on to. The moment a leader puts them on a plan, gives them ninety days, and starts talking about numbers and KPIs, the one thing they thought was safe has been threatened. Now trust is gone, first in the manager and then in the organization, because the manager is the representation of the company.

How to Do It: Understand what the plan communicates. To the person receiving it, a PIP is a date on the calendar by which they either rise up and fix everything or leave. It is an ultimatum. Janet is candid that this may work if the goal is to push someone out. If the goal is a culture where people do not want to leave, it is the wrong tool for the job.

Common Mistake: Skipping the intervention altogether. Amanda raised the natural follow-up: if not a PIP, is the alternative to leave it alone? Janet is emphatic that avoiding is not the answer. Avoidance alienates the rest of the team, and the struggling person is not hoping nobody brings it up. They are looking for a lifeline.

Take Off the Metrics Hat and Put On the Counselor Hat

The third option, the one that actually works, is a different conversation. Janet describes it as taking off the performance metrics hat and putting on the counselor hat.

How It Matters: As Janet says, if you know someone's story, it is really hard to hate them up close. Nine times out of ten, when engagement and performance drop, something is happening in that person's life where they feel out of control, and their nervous system is completely shot. A KPI cannot fix a psychological safety issue. Only trust can.

How to Do It: Get to know them and what is going on in their life. Janet's script is simple: yes, I am your manager, and I am also concerned. Here is what I am seeing. Is there something I need to know? What is going on? How can I help? What type of support do you need? That is very different from "you are not hitting the metrics," which they already know. Given real safety, people will tell you that a parent is in the hospital or a child is facing something hard. Sometimes the answer really is a mismatch, and sometimes that person needs to be home with a sick kid. You will never know if you do not ask the question.

Common Mistake: Leading with information. Amanda drew the parallel to coaching: the amateur walks in with the numbers and hands them over, not realizing the person already had that information and it was never the missing piece. The more advanced approach discerns the human side of what makes the information feel irrelevant right now. Information is not the transformation.

Conclusion

Start by calling burnout what it is: a fizzled fire, often caused by the storm around the candle rather than the candle itself. Learn the early signs, in yourself and in your people, before the numbers slide. Recognize that a third of a struggling team is likely in survival mode and that the rogue star at the top is part of the problem too. Retire the performance improvement plan as a first response, because an ultimatum only threatens the last safe thing a burned-out person has. Then have the other conversation: take off the metrics hat, put on the counselor hat, and ask what is really going on. The leaders who do this well tend to be the ones who have somewhere to let their own guard down, because the best leaders, like the best athletes, have coaches. Give yourself that support, and give it to your team.

To hear the full conversation with Janet Bernstein, listen to Episode 361 of The Amanda Kaufman Show on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is burnout, really?

Burnout is a fancy way of saying the fire has fizzled out, in Janet Bernstein's words. It does not mean the fire is gone for good, any more than a candle that goes out is gone forever. It often has less to do with the person than with the environment around them, and the practical sign is losing the excitement you used to feel, including waking up with dread instead of anticipation.

How can a leader tell the difference between burnout and a performance problem?

Look past the numbers to the behavior. Burned-out team members are operating from survival and the bare minimum, disengaging just enough to protect themselves, and it usually traces back to something in their life that feels out of control. Janet's rule of thumb is that on a team of ten, about a third are likely burned out. Performance is a tiny piece of what is happening; the drop in numbers is the symptom, not the cause.

Do performance improvement plans work for burned-out employees?

Usually not. To a burned-out person, a PIP is an ultimatum with a date on the calendar, and it threatens the one thing they thought was safe, their job. That pushes them further over the edge and costs the leader their trust. Janet acknowledges a PIP may work if the real goal is to move someone out, but it will not build a culture people do not want to leave.

What should a manager say to a struggling team member instead?

Take off the performance metrics hat and put on the counselor hat. Janet suggests language like: I am your manager, and I am also concerned. Here is what I am seeing. Is there something I need to know? How can I help? What type of support do you need? The goal is to create enough safety for the person to share what is really going on, because you cannot fix a psychological safety issue with a KPI.

Transcript

Amanda Kaufman (00:00)

Well, hey, hey, and welcome back to the Amanda Kaufman Show. And I have been looking forward to this interview with Janet Bernstein. She is a keynote speaker, human behavior expert, 10-time author, and she is dedicated to helping organizations build trust, improve communication, and create cultures that people don't want to leave.

Amanda Kaufman (00:25)

She has worked for more than 20 years in corporate leadership, learning and development, and professional training. She's helped individuals and teams grow through practical strategies. And she uses tools like emotional intelligence, behavior styles, communication, executive presence, and human behavior. So I am really excited for this conversation today. Janet, welcome to the show.

Janet Bernstein (00:48)

Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Can't

Janet Bernstein (00:51)

wait. I watch all of your episodes.

Amanda Kaufman (00:54)

I'm so glad that you're a a listener who is on the show. That is fantastic. So Janet, I'm I'm super curious. Like if people were like thinking about skipping and you were like, wait, just one thing to know about human behavior, leadership, and culture, like what is that biggest nugget that you wish everybody knew?

Janet Bernstein (01:12)

So I think that right now everybody is a little bit burned out. And I think whether you're in corporate America, whether you're an entrepreneur, I don't care what you're doing with your life, even if you're living in your purpose, you're probably a little bit burned out. And there's a reason for that. And what I teach is gonna fix it. So if you're thinking about scrolling, don't do it because this is gonna be

Amanda Kaufman (01:35)

Yeah.

Janet Bernstein (01:36)

the highlight of your day.

Amanda Kaufman (01:38)

Let's unpack this. That's a pretty big assertion, and I tend to agree with you that so many, like the vast majority of people are experiencing a level of burnout. How do you know for sure, you know, if it's really like a burnout situation or else?

Janet Bernstein (01:57)

So and and I'm glad you asked that because I do think burnout is a little bit of a cliche word. and I feel like I can say that now because I wrote a book that has burnout in the title. And I will say everywhere I go when I mention anything about burnout, I see the reaction, I see the eyes roll, I see the deep sigh, I see people get on their phone and start scrolling. And I know that we all none of us want to talk about burnout and none of us want to admit it. But

Janet Bernstein (02:23)

Anytime someone reaches out to me and starts asking me questions about what I do or how I help, or they start telling me about a challenge in their organization or with their team, it always ends up coming back to they do not feel the fire anymore. And so burnout is a fancy way of saying the fire has fizzled out.

Janet Bernstein (02:45)

Now it doesn't mean that it's gone and it doesn't mean you can't get it back. I mean, it's no different than a a candle, right? And it goes out, you know. Uh-oh, it's gone out. Relight it. It's the same thing, right? So once a candle burns out, doesn't mean it's gone forever, right? And so burnout just means that your flame has fizzled. And then now you gotta figure out. Now,

Amanda Kaufman (03:06)

Then you said figure on.

Janet Bernstein (03:07)

also, right, and I love I'm such a visual person. So anybody listening to this who's only doing audio version, right, is gonna be struggling. But

Janet Bernstein (03:15)

but you've got to see this visual because if you think about a candle, right, all of the environment also has to work around that candle for it to stay lit. So if everything is coming, the storms are coming, and you light a little candle and you're trying to shine, but everything is crashing down around you, that light's not gonna stay lit either. So burnout just means you've lost your fire. It may not be something of your own doing.

Amanda Kaufman (03:40)

shit.

Janet Bernstein (03:40)

You know, it really could be just.

Janet Bernstein (03:43)

The the elements around you are doing so much that doesn't matter how strong your fire is right now, you're gonna either you might have to remove yourself from that or you might have to wait for that storm to pass. Right? Something is happening though where your fire is not going to burn as brightly. And how you know it is you don't have the excitement that you had, you're not waking up excited to do anything anymore.

Janet Bernstein (04:10)

And and that's that's how I know personally. When I wake up in the morning, if I can look at my day and have some excitement, I know I'm good. But if I wake up and I have that feeling of dread, which I had a lot in corporate America, then I know that that's burnout creeping in. But it's also little things like someone asks you, you know, how to do something, and normally you're like, it's so easy, and you want to tell them all the things, and instead you're like, Well

Janet Bernstein (04:37)

You know, it's kinda like the you know like you've lost that excitement, even just talking about things that are really easy for you. but also

Amanda Kaufman (04:44)

Yeah.

Janet Bernstein (04:44)

you may notice little things like and we know this as moms, right? We might snap at the kiddos, you know, so instead of having that patience or that ability to just take a deep breath and say, okay, my my child or my grandchild is asking me a question, you know. and so burnout is very tricky, you know, and we all love to say we don't have burnout, you know, we're just stressed out. It was just stress, you know. But

Janet Bernstein (05:06)

But it's it's burnout in in some way or another.

Amanda Kaufman (05:10)

I I I love that. And you're right. I think that people do seem to go to considerable lengths to disguise that burnout, but it is obvious. I mean, if if the the sparkle's not there, the joy is not there, and that's not to say you've got to be happy clappy all the time. Like that's just not real life. so okay, everybody's feeling burnout. There's a lot of the there's a lot of contributing factors to your point, different environmental factors.

Amanda Kaufman (05:37)

That are leading to this burnout. So how come how come people don't fix it? Or do they? Or do they try to fix it and it doesn't work? Or, you know, like, I guess I'm asking, what what do you think is the reason that so many people are struggling with nurturing that light or shifting their environment, you know, to allow the candle to burn more brightly?

Janet Bernstein (06:03)

Well, because because on the other side of that, it's usually a bigger leap, right? So it right now it let's just say you're in you're you're in a corporate role and it's not really the role you wanted. It's one that you just took because you needed it. It was stability, it had a paycheck, it had a four one K or whatever the the draw was, right?

Janet Bernstein (06:27)

And so you're there, and every day you drive in and you go into your cubicle and you you know that you don't really feel completely alive when you're there. But the thought of like walking away from that and maybe either launching a business or going on a job hunt or whatever it is, that feels so big that it's easier to just wallow in this other place.

Janet Bernstein (06:53)

and also it's it's easier to to say, you know, well at least I have a job or at least I have right. And so what we do is we settle

Amanda Kaufman (06:59)

And so what we do is we study

Janet Bernstein (07:01)

and we say things like I should be happier or I should be happy that I have this job. Or we get stuck in that, well my friend so and so has been without a job for six months and they're about to lose their house. So I need to just be thankful that I have my job. Right. And so the alternative is is fear in to us.

Janet Bernstein (07:22)

It means that we would have to step out of that comfort zone, even though there's nothing comfortable about where we're at. We just we view that other side as so much more of a risky thing. So it's easier to stay put because also this is the norm. This is what society says is the norm. you're supposed to have a job you don't like. you're supposed to be a starving artist. You're right. We we have these things that we believe. Money doesn't grow on trees. Money's the root of all evil, right?

Janet Bernstein (07:50)

So we we have all these things that we're being told, so it's just easier to stay there because that's what everybody believes.

Amanda Kaufman (07:56)

Mm-hmm. my gosh. You're taking me back to my corporate experience. You know, like I was there for a decade and at first it was very much sparkle. I was like, my God, I can't believe I landed landed this job. I can't believe that I get to do this work. And by the time I was transitioning out of corporate, that flame was very much extinguishing. And, you know, I I think like

Amanda Kaufman (08:21)

People's needs do change and you do grow. And if you do identify as being a higher achiever, a higher performer, the truth, the fact is, the truth is that that position, that role, maybe, maybe it really is like the tops compared to what you grew up with or compared to another phase of life. That doesn't mean that it's gonna be the tops forever, though. And so what I'm kind of picking up, reading between the lines here is that.

Amanda Kaufman (08:48)

The comparison counts too. If you're comparing yourself to a time when you had far fewer capabilities, or you're comparing yourself to perhaps a community you you identify with that they don't have the same opportunities as you, I think that that that feeling of obligated gratitude kind of sucks. Of like,

Janet Bernstein (09:09)

yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (09:09)

you should be grateful, you should this and should

Amanda Kaufman (09:13)

gratitude a thousand percent, a thousand percent. That doesn't diminish though your ambition and your desire to have something more aligned. So

Janet Bernstein (09:22)

And it's okay

Janet Bernstein (09:23)

to be thankful for what you have and still want more. Right? I mean, like

Amanda Kaufman (09:29)

There's a duality there, yes.

Janet Bernstein (09:31)

I remember landing the the corporate training job that I that I just exited a year ago. And I when I first got this job, it was following a really tough couple of years, COVID.

Janet Bernstein (09:44)

you know, canceled all of my live events, all of my speaking engagements, and I found myself, you know, rebuilding from a place of burnout and and just uncertainty and what is happening in this world. Everybody is on Zoom and I don't want any part of it. And and so I found this amazing job that had benefits and great titles and great people. And I I literally felt like I, you know, won the lottery the day that I walked in. You know, they they gave me a Yeti cup with my name engraved on it.

Janet Bernstein (10:14)

And I posted that thing on social media and was like, I have done it. You know, I was so excited, right? and and what's funny is the day that I left, I couldn't even look at that Yeti the same way. it I literally had a level of disgust. But it was okay to have that gratitude in the beginning and also gratitude that I was able to walk away from that three years later. Because that's that's okay, you know.

Amanda Kaufman (10:37)

years later. Because that's that's okay.

Janet Bernstein (10:40)

I think we get you you alluded to it. We we get into this, we should be thankful for. That doesn't mean you stay put. You know, you can be thankful for something at that moment. It's no different than a relationship, right? And man, I am no relationship counselor, but there are relationships that you have in your life that are not meant to carry you all the way to the end. And if you do hang on for dear life for too long, it might drag you down. And it's the same with jobs. It's okay to be thankful.

Janet Bernstein (11:08)

for what they brought you at that time and then be thankful that you exited when you needed to.

Amanda Kaufman (11:14)

thousand percent your needs change the circumstances change like life one of my favorite quotes ever is Aristotle said that the only constant is change

Janet Bernstein (11:24)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (11:26)

so okay burnout everybody's experiencing it often we're hanging on to the familiar you know not necessarily the comfortable but the familiar for sure what happens when it goes unaddressed and especially when

Amanda Kaufman (11:39)

You know, I'm thinking about leaders, and I'm thinking about leaders who, you know, maybe you've got a team of people and that you see their potential, you see their their capability. And maybe you're you're thinking they're holding back somehow, or maybe that burnout is getting in the way of team performance. Like what does a leader need to do?

Janet Bernstein (11:58)

So what I talk about when I when I talk to a leader who who will usually call me and say something along the lines of I'm curious about the work that you're doing, you know, and that's their way of saying, Hey, I need help. And and I'll say, tell me a little bit about, you know, what's going on in your organization. And so usually after a few minutes of of getting past the how amazing they are, because they are amazing too, I finally get them to admit something. And it's usually like,

Janet Bernstein (12:27)

I have this one team and it's led by an incredible leader. I'm like, okay. And then they tell me there's 10 people that report to this incredible leader, but they're not hitting their goals and we've had turnover and we've lost clients because of it. And it's the only team that we really seem to be seeing this with right now. And of course, what that tells me is that's the only one you're seeing, but trust me, this is happening everywhere.

Janet Bernstein (12:54)

So typically if you have a team of say 10 people, it is pretty safe to say that a third of them are completely burned out and they are operating from a place of survival and the bare minimum. and so right, we've heard these terms, quiet quitting and and things like that. And that's what happens is they they've hit the point where they have lost the spark, but they are too afraid to walk away, or they physically can't, mentally can't.

Janet Bernstein (13:21)

financially can't, whatever their can't reason is, they've decided they have to stay. And so they're going to do the bare minimum and they're going to disengage just a little bit to protect themselves. So what the leader is seeing is usually poor performance. And so a lot of times they will be like, so I'm going to put them on a performance improvement plan. We're going to have a serious conversation. We're going to talk about numbers and KPIs and metrics.

Janet Bernstein (13:46)

And what happens is all that does is push that person a little bit further over the edge. So if you're seeing it as a

Amanda Kaufman (13:52)

Mm. 'Cause now they're tense,

Amanda Kaufman (13:54)

right? Their job security's at stake and so

Janet Bernstein (13:57)

Right. The one thing that that they thought that was

Janet Bernstein (14:00)

safe was at least I have this job. Now you've you've threatened them with the one thing they thought was safe, which was their job. Right. Because everything else in their world, right? Think about the storm around the candle. Everything else is crumbling. And that little job was that last little thing they were holding on to. So the moment you put them on a pip and

Amanda Kaufman (14:18)

Yeah.

Janet Bernstein (14:20)

you tell them, you know, we're gonna have to get your numbers up. I'm gonna give you ninety days and all these things, now they are

Janet Bernstein (14:26)

Feeling like, my gosh, I can't even count on this. So now we're talking about things like psychological safety and trust, right? So now if that leader doesn't approach

Amanda Kaufman (14:36)

Okay.

Janet Bernstein (14:37)

this from a place of emotional awareness and they don't proceed in a way that helps that person process what's happening, now that person loses trust in them. And then they're gonna lose trust in the organization because the manager is the is the representation of that company.

Janet Bernstein (14:53)

And so now let's say our team of 10, let's say we've got three that are at the bottom that are struggling. We've usually got one or two high achievers who are killing it, they are beating all the sales quotas, they're doing all the things, but a lot of times you have one of those people is going rogue, they're breaking rules, they can't be managed, they steamroll all over everybody, and everybody knows it. And the once again, the leader is too busy trying to deal with the poor performance.

Janet Bernstein (15:23)

That they're not disciplining that person at the top. So

Amanda Kaufman (15:26)

Seems

Amanda Kaufman (15:26)

like that would be a fear reinforcer too, right? Like if I lose this top performer and I've got, you know, the the these lower performers who are not producing, like that feels like a rock and a hard place for for a typical leader.

Janet Bernstein (15:40)

Yeah. And and what here's what normally happens. Those high performers,

Janet Bernstein (15:44)

those are the ones that usually get promoted into the leadership position. So they don't understand the challenges that the people at the bottom might be having because they've always been top performers. And then what do we do best? We promote people, but we don't train them on emotional intelligence or psychological safety, or you know, that we don't we don't teach

Amanda Kaufman (16:04)

It's yeah.

Janet Bernstein (16:06)

them these because a lot of times.

Janet Bernstein (16:08)

The people in charge don't even know about these tactics or how they should be used. Right. And

Amanda Kaufman (16:12)

Mm.

Janet Bernstein (16:13)

so a lot of times what we're dealing with is the fallout from a leader who didn't know how to handle the people. And so by the time they call me in to do a workshop or a talk with their leaders, they've already got people on performance improvement plans, one person's already out the door.

Janet Bernstein (16:30)

You know, this this one rogue leader, you know, who's doing their own it's like wild, wild west, you know, doing whatever they want, right? And so all of a sudden, you know, you're coming in trying to assess and you're like, my gosh, and you see it very clearly, but the people that are leading this company don't understand what's happening. They just think there's a performance issue. And performance is such a tiny little piece of it, right? it's so many other factors.

Amanda Kaufman (16:55)

Mm-hmm. So so what should what could a leader do about the situation? Because, you know, if we're not putting them on a performance improvement plan, for example, you know, avoiding or skipping the intervention all altogether seems like probably the next choice. So what what would be that third option? Which I I'm

Janet Bernstein (17:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (17:17)

guessing you you have a you have some strategies on this.

Janet Bernstein (17:20)

Yeah.

Janet Bernstein (17:20)

So avoiding is definitely not the answer. you know, a avoiding is not gonna make it go away. and and actually it's gonna alienate the other people on the team. but also that person that's struggling, they're not looking for someone to avoid it and not not bring it up. They're looking for a a lifeline, you know. So so that's what you kind of have to be. It's almost like you've got to take off that performance metrics, whatever hat, and you've got to kind of put on like the counselor hat.

Janet Bernstein (17:49)

And now you've got to find out, hey, what's going on with this person? And so this is where I always say if you know someone's story, it's really hard to hate them up close. Right. So get to know them, you know, get to know what's going on in their life. And say things like, hey, you know, yes, I'm your manager, but also I'm concerned. Here's what I'm seeing. You know, is there something I need to know? You know, what's what's going on? How can I help?

Janet Bernstein (18:17)

You know, what type of support do you need? Right? Not I'm seeing this and you're not hitting the metrics. They already know they're not hitting the metrics, right? And so a performance improvement plan, all that is to them is it's a date on the calendar that either they have to suddenly rise up and fix everything or they have to leave. That's all you've done is give them an ultimatum. And that that may work if you really want to push them out. But if you want a culture where people don't want to leave.

Janet Bernstein (18:46)

You have to give them that safety so that they can feel safe enough to say, hey, my life is crumbling right now because my mom's in the hospital or my son is facing this or whatever's happening in their life. And if you give them permission to share that, you can sometimes find out what that is. And yes, sometimes it is a mismatch. And maybe they shouldn't be in that role. And maybe they do need to be at home with their sick kiddo or who knows, you know, but

Janet Bernstein (19:13)

You'll never never know if you don't ask the question. Right. And so don't go straight to trying to fix because you're not gonna fix a psychological safety issue with, you know, a KPI. You know, that's not gonna do anything for

Amanda Kaufman (19:27)

The truer words, you know, when I think about coaching and the coaching industry in in general, so many times you can tell an amateur coach because an amateur will walk in with the numbers or the the very basic information and be like, look.

Amanda Kaufman (19:44)

Here you go, here's the information. And it turns out that the person very often actually had that information, or they they at least had an awareness that that of directionally what that information was. And information is not truly the transformation. And you know, contrast that with a more advanced coach like yourself. they're able to, you know, discern that it that human side, the human behavior, like you said,

Amanda Kaufman (20:10)

that the what is the reason that that information perhaps doesn't seem to have meaning or relevance or priority? It makes perfect sense in that context of somebody being in a burnout environment situation. I love this. So good.

Janet Bernstein (20:25)

Exactly. Exactly. Well, and

Janet Bernstein (20:27)

a lot of times when people are disengaged and their performance starts to drop, it's because they either no longer feel like it's safe for them to speak up, they don't trust the leadership for some reason. but nine times out of ten, it's because something is happening in their life where they feel out of control. And so because their nervous system is now completely shot.

Janet Bernstein (20:53)

It's affecting them in every area. And that's usually

Amanda Kaufman (20:55)

Yeah.

Janet Bernstein (20:56)

what we're seeing. And in and in today's world, I mean, people are dealing with so many things, right? So many things. Like I can't even tell you the number of times I come into an organization and start talking to even the the savviest leader who everybody looks up to, who they're like, she's got it all together. Go talk to her. And she'll close the door and be in tears and say, yeah.

Janet Bernstein (21:20)

My mom is in an assisted living. I just had my dad put on hospice. I'm doing this. My kid, you know, like they are the most overloaded. And yet everybody is still going to them too. And so that's what we're seeing as well is the people who you think have everything together, they're just really good at masking it.

Amanda Kaufman (21:39)

They're like a duck on water, right? So like underneath their feet are just going a thousand miles a minute and they look so smooth and cool. And you know, like that's also part of the pressure of leadership, you know, like there is a responsibility that you have not to have your stuff, you know, become the problem of everybody that reports to you. So it's understandable to kind of keep that persona, that professional presence, and it doesn't negate that you're a human being.

Janet Bernstein (22:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (22:07)

Right.

Amanda Kaufman (22:08)

And I you know, I I totally love what you're doing here, Janet, because leaders that have a place where they can really connect to their humanity, I'm guessing they're much better leaders because they're able to connect to the humanity of other people versus keeping it all, you know, not

Janet Bernstein (22:24)

And

Amanda Kaufman (22:24)

just as a professional persona presence, but again,

Janet Bernstein (22:27)

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (22:28)

avoidance really bottling it up.

Janet Bernstein (22:30)

Yeah, and and I think that's one reason why

Janet Bernstein (22:33)

I am so passionate about being on this side of it. You know, I've done coaching, I've worked with entrepreneurs, I've worked with coaches and speakers and consultants like me. I I love working with those people, but I do see a huge gap in corporate America in the strongest leaders don't have someone like me. And that's where I want to step in. I want to be that person who, hey, I've done it. I've had the vice president title.

Janet Bernstein (22:59)

I've had the teams of people, I know what you're going through. Now let's let's go ahead and take off that I know everything hat that you've been wearing for far too long. And let's actually get down to what's going on with your team, right? And like where are you not delegating? Where are you are you overcontrolling? You know, what what are you doing as a leader that's causing your people to lack this trust in you? And let's figure that out together. And that's really why I've made this shift into this world.

Amanda Kaufman (23:29)

I love this. And it's so it's so beneficial to the right person because so very often we have all these other relationships that we're managing, whether you're an entrepreneur or in corporate, but especially in corporate, like it can be very insular. I think about that movie The Truman Show. It's almost like these big corporations, the culture is so strong. It's a little like this big bubble, right? And so it has somebody from literally outside the bubble, not part of your reporting line, not part of the hierarchy.

Amanda Kaufman (23:57)

like objective third party

Janet Bernstein (23:58)

Right.

Amanda Kaufman (23:59)

who can hold that confidence and that and that confidentiality and that space and and literally their own like your only agenda is their success. And and I

Janet Bernstein (24:09)

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Amanda Kaufman (24:11)

like that that's how you perform at the next level is is that you give yourself the benefit of team and support. And it's not just the team that

Janet Bernstein (24:17)

And you've gotta have

Amanda Kaufman (24:19)

reports to you.

Janet Bernstein (24:20)

exactly because we because you know what, the and the best leaders get this. You know, the the best athletes have coaches, right? So the best leaders have to have someone who can let them let their guard down and open up and say, Hey, this is a blind spot for me. You know, how do I fix this? And I mean, once you're willing to address those things, you're gonna be invincible.

Janet Bernstein (24:43)

But if you're doing it all on your own and you don't bring in somebody to to to take that load off, it's just gonna get heavier and heavier to carry.

Amanda Kaufman (24:51)

Makes sense. Janet, this was just delightful and I cannot wait to have you back on another episode. But until then, how can people connect with you?

Janet Bernstein (24:59)

Yes, so find me. I am all over social media. So LinkedIn or Facebook are probably my two best places, but LinkedIn I am sharing a lot of fun things, including a newsletter called Rebellious Leadership, and a podcast called Rebels Worth Knowing. So if you want to be a rebel

Amanda Kaufman (25:14)

No, no you want to be a

Janet Bernstein (25:16)

in your corporate leadership role, then definitely come and follow me there.

Amanda Kaufman (25:20)

Amazing. And dear listener, we'll make sure we have all of Janet's links around this video that you can grab from the show notes. Thank you so much for being here, Janet. I really appreciate it.

Janet Bernstein (25:30)

Thanks for having me. It was such a pleasure. I love your work and your approach and how you work with people just like me. so I am a huge fan for sure.

Amanda Kaufman (25:40)

Absolutely. Well, the feeling is absolutely mutual. And dear listener, make sure you grab the link to this episode and share it with at least three leaders that you know who maybe are wanting to decode their leadership style and be a little bit of a rebel, which by the way I would really encourage. I mean, if leadership was easy, there would be one book on the subject.

Amanda Kaufman (26:00)

And it's like a huge genre. There's so many ways to do it. And you know, discovering your own leadership style is super, super important. you should definitely share this with your fellow leaderly folks. don't forget to subscribe because we've got more amazing episodes coming up real soon.

Amanda Kaufman (26:18)

And if you have been loving the show, do take a the time to leave us a friendly comment or a nice little honest five-star review. We always really appreciate those. And until the very next time we see each other, just keep doing what matters.